Zen Gem no4: How to Train Your Brain Gym in the City Centre of Leeds

So anyways are wilful liberation fun facts and chimerical thief you get 10% off of any order from Khmer K IME RA KO SSE that Kammerer copy.com and use code then to get 10% off so you have are like a mansion: like your glasses and white logo propeller because were about to to get all nerdy Stuart all in the service of you are and you have a wedding ring that you can have a role in the business and human performance in America's top personal trainer and the world's most influential health and this show was with everything you need to optimise physical is a you you are together I recorded this pretty controversial interview about a key ptosis with our guiding Dr Richard each in the interview Dr Veatch claimed that the form of key towns that most people take nowadays using I get like Dixie tone supplement are in the can actually be quite dangerous in in his solution during a podcast I was something called key tone salts you may have heard of these are the extremely expensive but according to hear a far more natural and safe and healthy way to get your body very quickly into key ptosis for anything from you like managing medical conditions to improve in cognition to increasing endurance et cetera and I actually have the interview I was sent a few bottles of these ketones salt and I tried them why tried them at home just taking a few of the kitchen table and for those of you who do the whole kit also staying if if you're a nerd person in your mom's basement with nothing better to do than to measure blood ketone values are then were you all your next is pretty intriguing in my my ketone charlatan in about 15 minutes from under 12 above five and then I did this again during a race and this time combined with the with drinking about 75 g of pure glucose along with these ketones also before a tough model event in under the results were equally as astounding error in an extremely fast race that you nothing and are proceeded sexy won that race proceeded not to eat for another four hours or so and then again every time a measure ketones are through the roof about what might the question in yours too might be whether or not these fancy expensive ketone salts are actually far better or safer then what most of Tavern which is ketone esters arm and ketone esters which is what most people use or those actually result in any kind of long-term health issues while I decided to you where to turn to the man himself key ptosis expert Dr Dominique de Agostino to give us his opinion on this issue and on's mini guest on the show before you may have heard of the M if you look into things like key ptosis for everything from managing neurological disorders to performance enhancement in extreme environments to holding your breath for a longer period of time he is a Prof in the Department of molecular pharmacology and physiology at University of South Florida are in that means that wherever he is right now has got to be warmer than the 3° out my front door I in and I would imagine he's he's in quite bomb your conditions than yours truly are but his research is supported by the office of Naval research laboratory of defence arm up to 11 privatisations and foundations turn to this dude arm to really learn what's going on when it comes to key ptosis and is no stranger to this part as he was a previous guest episode called the deep dive into key ptosis our Navy seals extreme athlete and busy executives can enhance physical or mental performance with the secret weapon of ketone fuel to Arlington episode on with everything else at the time I talk about today if it is good then revealed that Mr Khan/Dom that Bainbridge Villas.com site the poll so the beans are Dom welcome to the Shulman book back to show you have greater on Ben tune Nigel agreed back from that original "wild à la To burn yarn you I can clarify I move things there are you talking about ketone esters ski consult the wood actually in the product on the market rate now are ketone salts and I could delve into exactly what they are you know biochemistry point of view versa ketone esters in, okay social work what's currently on the market that that is available for people to buy in most cases that are ketones salt yet it did I miss speaking I think you described note taking up bile to liquid it may benefit would ketone force we choose our own liquid that they ketones salt formula but there is also no ketone now what I what I took was exactly what Dr Veatch had talked about and what they were the centrepiece in all I did I did miss speak our list that is the key to at the guy I presented things completely backwards just a couple tells the ketone esters that was did your hands on superexpensive N and those were the ones that that I like the 3000 of the $30,000 depending you ask yes the ketone esters are the ones Dr Veatch said to me the ketone salts are the ones that you can find in most products out there so just a clarification arm and a complete idiot but I it was degrading I put it under the umbrella here in Europe no usually a good acting under the umbrella of the Council, and you get the two mixed up over and Henry could get an equally expensive ketone salt if you wanted to sell the expense just comes down to how what kind of ketones salt you want to make and what kind of ketone esters you Wanna make a start on you're just starting materials but in most cases when somebody goes out in them by one of these new earthlike ketone enhancing supplements on their purchasing the ketone bar salt not the ketone esters in most cases absolutely are what you getting it to research chemical are which we do it we also make in-house and I also buy them from a variety of sources and we tested are like about 20 different types of formulas are the individual molecules and formulations of them but yet you can go out there the commercial products out there that you are familiar with our marketing dinner is the key tone salts are in the and that essentially you take the hydroxybutyrate molecule are you could use a little acetate tune you therefore of the hydroxybutyrate combined with a monovalent or divalent cation which editor for electrolyte and narrow and there could be sodium or potassium that you are in a monovalent handheld bind very tightly ionic we find you are hydroxybutyrate and its water-soluble you consuming any particular spike a quick or calcium magnesium you could make a lithium salt the bid hydroxybutyrate immunity what your periodic table in a strontium variant you could you could make a lot of different types of ketone calcium and magnesium are pretty much all of them are just like they do hydroxybutyrate some Assault exactly yet we use a lithium salt to last for some experiments with USPS and unique properties assault has not have to be sodium each was talking about accessory mode we could and I have formulations of ketones of sodium switches to know where you are actually just that one with the magnesium.and what work my magnesium was skyhigh are maybe not that thing you want it too high but it was an indication that a bid hydroxybutyrate magnesium salt is actually very bioavailable and we know people that you dieting tent to run will make the final one of the blokes generic tax you collectively have a test these things are and you can also have assault of the United the basic alkaline amino acids would be arginine lysine and histamine and people told me they've created a creative salt and I've yet to can attest that experimentally but only to supply to creatine salt or an amino acid salt are you saying that they do hydroxybutyrate could be bounds to creating salt and mineral acid salt theoretical absolutely you could make an amino acid in a balance mineral salt with bid hydroxybutyrate there is be delivering the ketone and also some beneficial alkaline amino acids by a regulating particular into mania acid formula end up and down to the minerals to stop the electrolytes you can what we do lab now what doctors each was describing what I had on my sure was that to get her as much bid hydroxybutyrate delivered into the body as necessary to get your ketone levels really high religious often twisted of key ptosis that the amount assaulted have to have that bounty would be really high in as you just alluded to the other salt would not necessarily need to be sodium per sale you mention that you did with Malaysian minimalism of through the roof we could with with lithium amino acid salt creatine salt but with enough painting with a broad brush does this just mean in you salt that you are buying the stuff to have to take copious amounts of potentially dangerous amount of year are the main idea what you are speaking pretty much directly about sodium hydroxybutyrate then you could get sodium levels up our you know early Heidegger into their inner reader for nine more arranged back could be putting stress on your body conceivably like a much softer retorting deserters and a light like I personally what will take off you add up all the seesaw. Taken during the dates on a typical day for me I'm consuming like a lifetime's three-day 6 g-ish worth of salt yet when I first started doing the staff wages testing and buying the sodium beta hydroxybutyrate from Mike Sigma asked for me to get into their wonder 2 mmol range on top above or out are yet are I would I was getting about that now up to 10 g per day and multiple dosing during the day so that's why realised quickly there you know the sodium could get you there but it noticeably Microsoft is horrible but worked all the work you know to bring to the market you really had to balance out the mineral weird at catching other minerals and also formulated with our ideally with a carrier because when you consuming to rebuild hydroxybutyrate nudist and calcinosis with my letter… You really love washing up with that usually meant that great if you why you know that you might can minutes bike drag and ago and you out there but it also comes down basically back the baseline within an hour I was assaulted within our two hours with the ketone esters are typically kind of it depends on your toes and amateur take in and what not to started formulating the art the ketone salts in a balanced preparation with potassium calcium magnesium and formulating it with various MCT-based powders in eating the 10 are powders and showing that if you give it if you deliver the ketone salt with a ketogenic it believes gastric absorption and then our strategic battle to get broken down to ketone hydroxybutyrate and extends from cookout profile and denoting one can bunch of different combinations and then our out which ones were optimal based on the cutting that was dying and then I didn't copy that can marketed that and were continuing to look at all the different forms of are ketone salts in esters we work with the bride of ketone esters and comparing them to figure out which one is most efficacious which once was and vascular ketone esters here in just a moment but we document these ketone salts that you developed an income like mixed with with MCT's et cetera and companies that then take what you've developed and using the product is that were coming because because I know Ford's ever wondered uses arm is prove it in earlier you mention Patrick Arnold I know he has a one-on-one article aikido can user for resemble for year I have before you receive increase breath-hold and it is a few other companies now alarm actually popping up the producing ketones but the folks approach you guys if you can quite figure this is a new lab might licensed from your hubs that actually were from to commercial stable yet good question through I decided unilaterally you might lab but we have our University has a reputed our technology transfer office and are pendant lighting offers to enable basically say hey would you do show us what you doing anything in and we as we published us to the A1 about their boats typically one before you published rates surgeon to get it are still as we are testing and screening things for our the military work I was doing some of the formulations that were testing were cascading out as superior are against other formulations where we could achieve a level of key ptosis that was above and beyond what we could get with the highest dose of in isolation. Formulating together and are also from our none the pharmacokinetic profile lies but also tolerability and accountability factored in the University will kind of a toothpick of Robbie altogether taking care and any continually ask you know are in a wok fee would other commercial properties is out there related to population and anything that benefits kind of are something that a novel finding a formulation of the novel finding or you could get a composition of now recreating different types of ketone salts which you know we do lab to work with our organic chemistry department do something even Patrick Arnold was really great initially are legally small company and an independent scanners can have without bearing in Billy forward thinking Patrick was instrumental in helping the of development research programme by lobbying ketone salts are ketone esters of Michael Keaton salt though essentially we do the research and then we have people in technology transfer office there looks broad research to see if anything is patentable whether the new molecule formulation for the novel application of of ketones you know the 10 years ago the only thing that the ketogenic diet was useful clinically with paediatric epilepsy and now are a big scheme of conference are all being medical therapies, it is bad the applications are exploding in all different directions and you have hired researchers at Ivy League institutions now doing research on advisers ketones to suppress information activate our epigenetic pathways that can protection against extra maybe can extend longevity like you know these are good like that Dr Longo will be speaking about in a longevity and back to the Dixit from Yale University will be speaking about the dramatic are in Owen slammers suppressing effect of the ski condo reading this is all new information that is just heading now we know is no you know ketones give them only as a metabolite that supplied energy and after each did some fantastic and very art spearheaded all of our work to show that ketones are superior metabolite in their ability to generate ATP are is greater the opportunity to classes is greater modules and read our blog. Category you will be understood ketones as a energy metabolite but it would make sense that the energy metabolite even cycle immediate rDNA energy metabolism are powerful signalling molecules as receptors and tap with her body and a soul that that sense that and is downstream signalling there are impacted and riled up and these are like metabolically independent which means independent of their effects on metabolism very unique signalling properties that are of high interest to pharmaceutical company PI noted contact anyone to biblically reverse engineer molecule that work like ketone or specific anthologies to enter into the emerging field release are emerging about five years ago you science to avoid those pharmaceutical companies and every level of money I wonder with a grudge for tassels of your careful the idea what you know one of the like to add that one of the art pharmaceutical company that makes the most calm in Yantai epilepsy drug there is Naturally by UCB pharmaceuticals and I went to Belgium a year or two ago and they held a conference with other eugenic diet you know scientist to understand they know that the diet makes the job work better like you can the corner of the drug and get remarkable seizure control reading it completely off the drug but I think more importantly the test fishing for understanding mechanistic we the anticonvulsant effect of ketones by themselves who has decided instead to emerge eugenic you get more pharmaceutical companies interested in metabolism in general but also specifically interested in the signalling properties of specific ketones is is really interesting you got into our just a little bit ago are some of the things that you mix with ketones to enhance deliverability I know that for example you see when you look at the label of all these ketone supplements the addition of MCT is like like and CT powders before road to mere a study that you did that showed that the blood-brain barrier was relatively impermeable to a lot of of hydrophilic substances and then that would include something like ketones are ketone bodies and so the transport of ketones across your blood-brain barrier I if you do want them to be available to brain tissue is dependent on these are what I think will you describe them as was proton linked on monocarboxylic acid transporters are nearing that MCT powder could basically act as a shuttle dictionary ketone bodies across the blood brain barrier suited to view injected by the Europe than just your body but but consumers supplement as a one-two combo of hydroxybutyrate in MCT's you could potentially increase was available to the brain nor the other things though in addition MCT is that you have found that one could combine ketones with to enhance their deliverability or their efficacy here are a new and her to be pretty dirty buffers are silicon to increase the tolerability and the are an hour during the pharmacokinetic studies if they increase the extend out the pharmacokinetic profile how it influences the blood levels of it are medium-chain triglycerides are really are there are some significant dates are pretty cheap you now do very ketogenic if you give entry keys at the ball with an intragastric march to a rat you can achieve the level key ptosis to administer and really blown away by that the CE toiled away in a mark eugenic baby about you know the media to regular CE feet and you know is about 80% of what is the art will would be that you can easily 569 more with entreaties and and the reality is something very similar to light that like to brain octane the Dave Asprey cells we've weaved at the brain octane and it did really well against you notice the standard MCT oil by now nutrition probably will nutrition to the seller in like 1 m barrels was really gullible star performer in a lab to and approval nutrition to a small company based in Florida at cells are Creating a new mother will media bar also confuse their life are more owing to assurance before quality lots are so seasonally CCA type of versions of MCT oil also mentioned amino acids are in it and I believe that you mention branched-chain amino acids Dom arm countries where you choose those verses like a full spectrum of amino acids like essential amino acids and the reason I ask is because I I tend to personally during exercise find that essential amino acids in the give me a little bit more of a boost compared to the BCAA's bankers will your take is on that with the EAA's versus BCAA's year are well branched-chain amino acid with leucine, being more potent of them but if you combine the are if you take a formula that the between the one-to-one ratio of pension acids were seen exposing the billing are the other acids will can of more or less oxidised but terrible things you can get like similar signals that are branched-chain amino acids have been known for quite some time to impact our anabolic pathways by activating M for our moral lesson are in the tissue-specific manner are in in skeletal muscle and it may also have awesome versions of Prince amino acids perhaps the HND may have ever come about artefacts to our and in cannabis in the Taos Institute mean now it is something that in the product there you know I abuse myself extend our great similarities between the extend from formula without any swingers or anything in our debt I abuse myself we've actually used in experiments that were doing in the lab are even cancer experiment and find that the ketone salt when combined with gratitude glasses allows you to continue the to maintain key ptosis and a high level of ketones what's occurring on a physiological level that would allow the consumption of branching amino acids to maintain key ptosis relevant will earn to receive newsletters to purely ketogenic amino acid and one is loosing the other is lysine and they have minimal impact on the glycaemic response and that that's one of the benefits of it are and performance point of view I I think that they may offer some advantages we haven't studied down a little bit cautious.

Think of him directly studying lab burgers and adjust their may be helpful take on intra-workout are beginning years are during fasting and I can say that they cannot help you get through periods of fasting enable you have an Internet catabolic effect are if you are casting you talk about your also supplementing a centrally mounted think it is pouring that you have no essential amino acids were a pair of the building properties are that you age in Odis to speak I had enough penicillin with her last night are awful mangoes can heading your I think those guys in your liver actually store amino acid and throughout 24 hours after you eat especially funding like a stick and as long as your baseline levels of essentially lasted a will be available for anabolic properties whereas relative changes in leucine are what is most important for trigger triggering to the anabolic machinery growth and repair and you know you can take your receiver new you get some above some threshold level and activate the muscle protein synthesis and but you think you know the essential amino acids are not their health are going to rebuild but really anything new that you are a the previous day provide our availability of those essential amino acids and attentive couple my my workout exercise later in the day the going to fasting AI will have your you know within a few hour timeframe at the are extended fast and there may be some utility in essential amino bird that has naturally been shown experimentally I do think you know anecdotally from this experimenting with different passenger holder drenched in your acids can have some utility there and people be but working Camden and what not fasting within without branched-chain and also pick up a couple in no pound of lean body mass incorporated branched-chain amino acids into the fasting which went from me know three days the one I did like 14 days are inclined believe that the beneficial level I have a couple thoughts on that on the forces that from me would have sounded is that in a court restricted state and frankly do that I walk around about and £75 and like my my normal stable way is about hundred and 91, leaving about the about 80% of the calories I actually wants to leads to stealing from things like cultural course racing in your triathlon and some of his other events I compute and wear me out having having that mass to power ratio below but more advantage) and Aegis is is a good thing and I what I found was that when when I'm doing that typically I am doing a lot of of protein restriction and caloric restriction is that I sound something like essential amino acids to allow me to maintain muscle more effectively than branched-chain's because what I did of impurity and also worse book was pretty sensibly back when I was doing right for Monty ptosis for Ironman is like three years ago when when I was little during the race and also in my meals and my day leading up to the race just doing completed ptosis with were 0 to extremely low carbohydrate and he recommended branched-chain amino acids other there is a specific brand that he used and always to the episode that I did with Peter in which we discussed this arm and I use the branching amino acids were about eight hours into the events I embarked trail again ran out of energy also found that I I had quite muscle loss during my training are in then repeated the experiment using essential amino acids actually found that having having a force that amino acids and again the strike as I wasn't doing a lot of venison and liver and meet and was eating a relatively restricted diet from by the clerk in a protein-based point I found the essential amino acids and still do find the essential amino acids to to be more efficacious performance Sunday in a muscle mean and stay on point than the branch obtains a mattress, my my any cause one experience with those but the other thing in you mentioned this are in and I had died, forgot about this talk about this too much on the show these days but not HMB is something that you briefly mentioned it a few moments ago as an active metabolite of leucine and then I know that's been shown in multiple studies to be able to reduce muscle protein breakdown' saw the study last year and it was after the study came out that I started trying this combination especially before worked out to Nicky toric were fasted state are the culmination of each MBE and adenosine triphosphate are this was in the journal strength and conditioning research and at the the results were substantially showed that are through 12 week protocol with a bunch of trained man in a double-blind placebo diet controlled study of overall strength improved by more than 20% in the group supplementing with HMB and 80p compared to 5% for the placebo group and they also had enormous changes in lean mass as well mean the soft grip increase the lean mass by something like £20 over 12 weeks compared to about 4 pounds in the placebo group so it looks like you know in in in this case you are taking something like leucine in isolation combined with strength training and adequate calories and are in the addition in this case of ETP losing 400 mg of 80p per day either there is a significance beneficial factor strength apparently mass yeah you know I do think there's a lot of potential in the like to see you dealer can reproduce in multiple labs that we have carbon understanding outworked from a resistance training perspective to Igoe across a workout so I can interact workout but I do think there is no age and youth is one of those are something in in a toolbox that I think is is getting really help form our document or Terry and Anne going climbing to high altitude a lot of proteolytic cat with get kicked on when you get above 14,000 feet and in formulating something for our prevention muscle sparing in altitude HMB seems to be you know heading along the pathways that we think are hyperactive aided in a high about the they think are going to talk with a number of researchers at the Bethany ink HMB shines would be a situation where the person is putting themselves in time and overtrained to guide them really like Carolyn Hart and the German potential recruiting workout and give each MBE, in effect if you take like the average lifter you you may not effect really have that was put them into a catabolic state and give a relatively high dose to start seeing that the effect can be significant and I think political context dependent after a year interesting effect that that use all our and mechanics you are looking to warrant incorporated into formulas yeah I'm sure you have access to 2 essential amino acids ability if you are one without a change of followers of collagen items as I also have some sum HMB and 80p around the pantry to sell an item's use of with your trophy next mass of the listing session I wanted interrupted a show to tell you about our something sexy in my ears right now while I am recording are I 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barrier are believed to be will to block a bid hydroxy butyrate absorption organisation in question seems to question their are there so why consulted around for quite some time even fixed even 70s are even racaemic compounds in oh like one 3-D game dioxin was used back in the 1950s and 60s and 70s actually Elizabeth has extended its supply concentration human and others are getting back to the ketone soul are wider dangerous so I think the couple things that may be concerned about an impurity probably did research are I know he did research leading thinkers impact on sodium had a superior or a long while back and probably put it on the shelf because he was concerned about the removal of the leading first and foremost if you're trying to achieve therapeutic levels of key tells us like the trading conditions are you probably do well load someone out with sodium hydroxybutyrate and not think your day but there there are a range of studies I one published in the actually showing that the are even intravenous sodium pure sodium racaemic hydroxybutyrate a disorder of the number of disorders actually in use to the dietary prescription compound in Europe are one of of Madoc of multiple a soak away the hibernate deficiency syndrome and kit that received this basically kept alive because given the massive amount of sodium DL which is racaemic hydroxybutyrate and are used for a wide variety of disorders are raising glycogen synthesis are deficiency disorders undertake 3 million iguana to its being used are in in various and I have people there actually email parents who have gone through scores of channels acquired it for the children who have various forms of epilepsy and save the lifesaver you just cannot get the child to adhere to a strict eugenic diet for some reason or another are I did down to unless he has data to show that scientific publication. One day it's dangerous you know it it should be backed up by science great so we can you have decided which we can have opinions but we need to backup your data with science along with various publications out there that I'm not aware of and then on you know a number of safety committees releasing the ketone esters and what not I think he may have said that the code you note the ketone Aston that you galloping for of our a lot of our experiment into it came just one agent they are interesting you know many different dozens of different things and testing against one another and we have said ketone salts are you know up to 25 g per kilogram per day on long-term feeding studies all know keno know what we know we do our comprehensive metabolic panel on usually and we see no indication of the yellow River stress recognition and then we before the origins of the energy histology and have never seen anything are definitely alarming and there is nothing in the literature actually edited feeding the lives of naked with different disorders and actually given very large doses intravenously they decided not bearing is aware of something I know of but when it comes to and even with sodium dating ideal lead to even more safe you to balance out the mineral preparations that may be a conflict of interest there are related to the company can think of anything here that could be a factor but I think the doctor beat so far there are in the R version of introductory Astra for is is best and it could be but it has now been shaken Alex mentally yet and he made think that the sodium load are we can deny sodium as being about being that the back that thing but it's not doesn't show up in the clinical evidence are experimentally to clarify just a few things with those you listening in on who who don't have arm white lab coats on the racaemic mixture that Dominique just referred to the racaemic Psalter what would most of these ketone salts are and all that means is that includes both the D and L configurations sewing in chemistry at D refers to 2 Dexter to be out on the right and L are figures was Labour's leather something like that on the and so when one we look at appeals in its Dior spell configurations arm will only find hydroxybutyrate insulin like its physiological form in the human body in many cases it is in the deform but a racaemic mixture which is what a lot of these ketone salts are it in both HD and it L form and so are some with the rise that because that's synthetic non-native to the human body might not be as good as the D4 manual is one thing that are the duct of each bride up and the actual form that he developed it this ketone esters that he developed is your apparently not only is your not a year at a racaemic mixture but more like a and nine racaemic mixture I think your tip to his credit Saddam I know that when you mention that he was extremity with ketone salts sometime aggressively decades ago he was doing research on them I don't think she was using a racaemic Salisbury sure he was she was using like Leica and non-racaemic ketone salt arm tells me though what we are saying is us using bodies in the streets from an old or disrupted physiology from people using these nonreciprocal these racaemic salts using tits it is in your opinion, nonissue are belonging to a fine medical literature no treating disorders in our and originally entered biological science team back to 1857 remember any as the companies out there sign a lot of the stuff I looked at some of financial than an amount had installed anything like literally millions of doses that have been consumed and to my knowledge are no adverse effects have been seen are and I make a lot of animal work was done with racaemic compounds I have a look through my computer here together all the whole file here on just studies done with racaemic hydroxybutyrate ketone showing lower oxidative stress protects animals with typography and reproduction of/brain injury are various disorders like mad like buttons because of disorders of across-the-board everything positive there is no known negative things and actually contacted some of the our researchers did some work are Mikey actually enable the 13 detained I would shut up about there will be more because it actually how we make the ketone esters and line of intensive work done by URL force looking at one you can dial which basically splits and makes 50-50 hydroxybutyrate and this was giving a large doses to mice rats dogs dogs open on a treadmill with the stuff given 40% of the calories from that and I am initial that it could maintain your exercise performance over the sympathetic big day they called it the most promising synthetic fuel for long duration spaceflight and serve the purpose that it was extremely stable and highly energy dense and are enacted incorporated into food it was a humectant which kept the food moist also are protected the food from degradation are the big showstopper was that it tasted great I tasted pretty much like acute honest and I want you to think I'll do that with Dr features remixes ketone esters are the networks we actually have you starting materials to make to make our ketone esters to itself wanted by itself break down in the liver is an alcohol tie up all the family were to be a contributory nursing which contributes to Remington one you you think that the to use once butane dial and the market assessment of the leading indicators is it simply not palatable to the general population regularly disadvantages it's not palatable and are actually if you can advise you to to prevent actually take it yourself and then take the decline in Dr regions esters are a good – dream on Leicester the pharmacokinetic profile similar actually so to what the bid had acted Romano esters are the retail is one treaty Jindal was one Esteban that they can explore the one the hydroxybutyrate and then we have a diaster so we have modules were attributed with two attached to a latter-day food attributed I'll break down the must be great the release of his last which has effects on annual protection that that were registered and are ester just to clarify I thought about assaulting a man of the iodide can unregulated and tester can be added at the Leicester Kevin Neville Astor to actually if you have a metal gate spiritual gets national input expanding are good but before using arthritic you could have a publicity gig are an alcohol like a ghost writer? Example you could do cholesterol and attach you know rebate had actually reached to it and the we have various esters like this in the lab we have one treaty Jindal among Westerners and I esters and you we test them pharmacokinetic out at us and the different different applications but is a variety of esters that could be made to not all of them at the same potency and not all them are very palatable to soak oh be found in most polyester that we have a Nawab tends to be the most unpalatable to it it seems like OEC is inversely correlated with pal Dori my wife has just the right write-up to ketone esters that certain introductory to talk to us and it my mother was taxonomy design a unique is also donating people semi-supplements. Straighten my mouth hourly care by accident is my my jaded tastebuds in the test lab and just days when only punch basically yes I mean you know I've tried it you actually went to Dr Peter Lavin tried various versions of it are that he had you actually working in a grower can on another differently reagent that ended totally from my perspective you could totally deluded out you know 510 and 25% put in in Basel that would make it you know enough to you in high levels of ketones and for me I can tolerate it but the average etiquette beautiful like an ditch which market boat people out there very picky about our you noticed any nectar were not normal when it comes it is I can drink the stuff straight and it would put most people for puking the unit the people, but are to performance like your binoculars and your podcast will talk of the spectrum in terms of what they can tolerate getting back to the studio the racaemic so there is not whole are not included and almost indicated they would be harmful anyway but what we want to determine is if they are optimal rates that why it's really important to test our a lot of you know will test the various things and pick out your five or six different things top performers and then test them altogether against against one another that the things that were